Question for National Service Manager or Experts on ECM
#11
08-23-2018, 06:30 AM
With your background you can be of great help to a lot of folks on the forum.
Now all we need to do is (IMO) work together to uncover a solution to the problem.
I don't know if you tried this yet , but if not, why not give it a shot.
Have you tried a soft reset yet? That is where you remove the negative cable from the battery and hold it on to the positive cable end for several minutes.
This, as you know, allows the capacitors to discharge and allows the ECM to erase the RAM. Now after you reconnect that negative cable you start new and hopefully will have done the reset. If that doesn't do anything to clear up some of the problems , this is where you may need to delve further into what parameters are either absent or incorrect. You will need to reset things like radio stations , memory seats,mirrors etc. What do you think?
Now all we need to do is (IMO) work together to uncover a solution to the problem.
I don't know if you tried this yet , but if not, why not give it a shot.
Have you tried a soft reset yet? That is where you remove the negative cable from the battery and hold it on to the positive cable end for several minutes.
This, as you know, allows the capacitors to discharge and allows the ECM to erase the RAM. Now after you reconnect that negative cable you start new and hopefully will have done the reset. If that doesn't do anything to clear up some of the problems , this is where you may need to delve further into what parameters are either absent or incorrect. You will need to reset things like radio stations , memory seats,mirrors etc. What do you think?
Last edited by hanky; 08-23-2018 at 06:33 AM.
#12
08-23-2018, 08:13 PM
I did check the TPS today with the factory manual, and it all passes the tests.
The TPS does have 5 volts and ground from the car harness.
The TPS connections are confirmed back to the ECU, and the readings (ohms) are correct when the throttle is moved.
I guess the question is:
should I be getting a reading from TPS (on OB II scan) with the engine not running? Maybe not.
I do have the original ECU , and a second salvage yard ECU. But neither of them seem to be operational.
The ECU is supposed to shut the engine down when the car is wrecked. That's probably the reason the salvage ECU doesn't work...
I just have 2 shut down ECUs, I am concluding.
Other than towing the whole thing to the dealer, I am now out of ideas.
The TPS does have 5 volts and ground from the car harness.
The TPS connections are confirmed back to the ECU, and the readings (ohms) are correct when the throttle is moved.
I guess the question is:
should I be getting a reading from TPS (on OB II scan) with the engine not running? Maybe not.
I do have the original ECU , and a second salvage yard ECU. But neither of them seem to be operational.
The ECU is supposed to shut the engine down when the car is wrecked. That's probably the reason the salvage ECU doesn't work...
I just have 2 shut down ECUs, I am concluding.
Other than towing the whole thing to the dealer, I am now out of ideas.
#13
08-23-2018, 10:10 PM
Hanky is right. The techs at the Hyundai dealer do not carry such equipment to analyze or adjust timing on the ECM
They do, however, have sophisticated scanners that can do other adjustments and read much more data
They can do software updates, etc.
Also they can access other modules.
As for checking timing, an oscilloscope with dual inputs.
One on the coil and the other on the crank sensor will show the timing
Since it isn't starting, then you can also use an amp clamp on the starter
The peaks show the compression cycle
But, if you checked for spark and it has spark then the ECU is working as well as the crank sensor.
Did you spray starter fluid into the intake to see if it will start??
Check fuel pressure?? Is fuel rail being primed? Is the fuel pump running during crank?
5 volt reference. Would be good to have schematics to see where it comes out at the ECM
Then see where it should be ... like MAF and TPS.
Shorted or opened?
Well that's my two cents. Take with a grain of salt ... a big grain ... lol
They do, however, have sophisticated scanners that can do other adjustments and read much more data
They can do software updates, etc.
Also they can access other modules.
As for checking timing, an oscilloscope with dual inputs.
One on the coil and the other on the crank sensor will show the timing
Since it isn't starting, then you can also use an amp clamp on the starter
The peaks show the compression cycle
But, if you checked for spark and it has spark then the ECU is working as well as the crank sensor.
Did you spray starter fluid into the intake to see if it will start??
Check fuel pressure?? Is fuel rail being primed? Is the fuel pump running during crank?
5 volt reference. Would be good to have schematics to see where it comes out at the ECM
Then see where it should be ... like MAF and TPS.
Shorted or opened?
Well that's my two cents. Take with a grain of salt ... a big grain ... lol
#14
08-23-2018, 11:17 PM
They do have equipment to adjust ECM timing and fuel mix etc...but only when the whole car is hooked up. Spoke to Hyundai mechanics at the dealer today.
They want me to tow the car in...
Yes everything is going, spark from all 4 coils, and fuel has plenty pressure. fuel pump is definitely running.5 volts is there on the sensors...
Went through all the factory manual tests.
I do have the schematics but after going over it (through the whole thing) can't find anything else wrong. Tested everything to death.
No have not sprayed starter fluid (there's plenty of gas going into the cylinders). Afraid that starter fluid would damage the injectors.
I do have an O scope.
Thanks for all the suggestions, appreciate it. Looks like dead in the water.
Probably tear it all down or junk it.
Too bad, has been a great car for quite a lot of years. Hated to give up on it, but that's the way it goes at 220,000 miles.
They want me to tow the car in...
Yes everything is going, spark from all 4 coils, and fuel has plenty pressure. fuel pump is definitely running.5 volts is there on the sensors...
Went through all the factory manual tests.
I do have the schematics but after going over it (through the whole thing) can't find anything else wrong. Tested everything to death.
No have not sprayed starter fluid (there's plenty of gas going into the cylinders). Afraid that starter fluid would damage the injectors.
I do have an O scope.
Thanks for all the suggestions, appreciate it. Looks like dead in the water.
Probably tear it all down or junk it.
Too bad, has been a great car for quite a lot of years. Hated to give up on it, but that's the way it goes at 220,000 miles.
#15
08-24-2018, 04:18 AM
I guess the easiest thing to do is throw in the towel, but defeat is difficult to swallow sometimes.
Don't make the mistake a lot of guys do and that is to ignore the basics
You have fuel,but need to have the correct pressure or it will not start or run.
You have the tools to confirm the timing,If you are not sure what you should get , maybe we can help.
As "visitor" stated , spark is present so CKP sensor and ECM are working at least doing that part
Sometimes we get so involved looking for a far out problem when the real problem is right under our nose.
Starter fluid will not damage the injectors !
If to much is used it will damage the pistons !!!!
As you know,,,,,constant cranking and fuel going into the cyls ,even a small amount will adversely affect compression because it removes the oil film from the cyl walls.
You are probably missing something simple and looking past it. Still want to give up?
We still need to consider what is/could be affected by an overheat condition and rule them out one at a time.
It could very well be , those miles, yes that's a lot, but if we are going to accept that part should know exactly why.
Don't make the mistake a lot of guys do and that is to ignore the basics
You have fuel,but need to have the correct pressure or it will not start or run.
You have the tools to confirm the timing,If you are not sure what you should get , maybe we can help.
As "visitor" stated , spark is present so CKP sensor and ECM are working at least doing that part
Sometimes we get so involved looking for a far out problem when the real problem is right under our nose.
Starter fluid will not damage the injectors !
If to much is used it will damage the pistons !!!!
As you know,,,,,constant cranking and fuel going into the cyls ,even a small amount will adversely affect compression because it removes the oil film from the cyl walls.
You are probably missing something simple and looking past it. Still want to give up?
We still need to consider what is/could be affected by an overheat condition and rule them out one at a time.
It could very well be , those miles, yes that's a lot, but if we are going to accept that part should know exactly why.
#16
08-25-2018, 10:45 AM
I guess the easiest thing to do is throw in the towel, but defeat is difficult to swallow sometimes.
Don't make the mistake a lot of guys do and that is to ignore the basics
You have fuel,but need to have the correct pressure or it will not start or run.
You have the tools to confirm the timing,If you are not sure what you should get , maybe we can help.
As "visitor" stated , spark is present so CKP sensor and ECM are working at least doing that part
Sometimes we get so involved looking for a far out problem when the real problem is right under our nose.
Starter fluid will not damage the injectors !
If to much is used it will damage the pistons !!!!
As you know,,,,,constant cranking and fuel going into the cyls ,even a small amount will adversely affect compression because it removes the oil film from the cyl walls.
You are probably missing something simple and looking past it. Still want to give up?
We still need to consider what is/could be affected by an overheat condition and rule them out one at a time.
It could very well be , those miles, yes that's a lot, but if we are going to accept that part should know exactly why.
Don't make the mistake a lot of guys do and that is to ignore the basics
You have fuel,but need to have the correct pressure or it will not start or run.
You have the tools to confirm the timing,If you are not sure what you should get , maybe we can help.
As "visitor" stated , spark is present so CKP sensor and ECM are working at least doing that part
Sometimes we get so involved looking for a far out problem when the real problem is right under our nose.
Starter fluid will not damage the injectors !
If to much is used it will damage the pistons !!!!
As you know,,,,,constant cranking and fuel going into the cyls ,even a small amount will adversely affect compression because it removes the oil film from the cyl walls.
You are probably missing something simple and looking past it. Still want to give up?
We still need to consider what is/could be affected by an overheat condition and rule them out one at a time.
It could very well be , those miles, yes that's a lot, but if we are going to accept that part should know exactly why.
Did use the starter spray yesterday......no ignition......dead as a doornail. (starter spray is lubricated type)
Despite spark IS there, it won't fire at all. It's as if the timing of the spark is way off.
#17
08-25-2018, 10:48 AM
I guess the easiest thing to do is throw in the towel, but defeat is difficult to swallow sometimes.
Don't make the mistake a lot of guys do and that is to ignore the basics
You have fuel,but need to have the correct pressure or it will not start or run.
You have the tools to confirm the timing,If you are not sure what you should get , maybe we can help.
As "visitor" stated , spark is present so CKP sensor and ECM are working at least doing that part
Sometimes we get so involved looking for a far out problem when the real problem is right under our nose.
Starter fluid will not damage the injectors !
If to much is used it will damage the pistons !!!!
As you know,,,,,constant cranking and fuel going into the cyls ,even a small amount will adversely affect compression because it removes the oil film from the cyl walls.
You are probably missing something simple and looking past it. Still want to give up?
We still need to consider what is/could be affected by an overheat condition and rule them out one at a time.
It could very well be , those miles, yes that's a lot, but if we are going to accept that part should know exactly why.
Don't make the mistake a lot of guys do and that is to ignore the basics
You have fuel,but need to have the correct pressure or it will not start or run.
You have the tools to confirm the timing,If you are not sure what you should get , maybe we can help.
As "visitor" stated , spark is present so CKP sensor and ECM are working at least doing that part
Sometimes we get so involved looking for a far out problem when the real problem is right under our nose.
Starter fluid will not damage the injectors !
If to much is used it will damage the pistons !!!!
As you know,,,,,constant cranking and fuel going into the cyls ,even a small amount will adversely affect compression because it removes the oil film from the cyl walls.
You are probably missing something simple and looking past it. Still want to give up?
We still need to consider what is/could be affected by an overheat condition and rule them out one at a time.
It could very well be , those miles, yes that's a lot, but if we are going to accept that part should know exactly why.
Did use the starter spray yesterday......no ignition......dead as a doornail. Lubricated type starter spray.
Despite spark IS there, it won't fire at all. It's as if the timing of the spark is way off.
It's as if: the spark is coming at the bottom of the stroke....instead of the top.
That's my problem ---I don't give up...stubborn....determined.
Who "is" the Patron Saint of Lost Causes?
You are probably missing something simple and looking past it. Still want to give up?
Hell no.
and: I'm sure you are correct.
Last edited by ampmadscientist; 08-25-2018 at 11:15 AM.
#18
08-25-2018, 11:50 AM
You have 2 choices to confirm correct timing, 2 channel scope as suggested by "avisitor" to observe crank signal and spark
The other is to remove the timing belt cover and check that the timing marks line up as detailed in your shop manual.
I have never heard of an engine jumping timing simply by an overheat condition. I guess there is a first time for everything.
Any indications of backfire or any firing at all at the wrong time?
Can I ask , how did you check the compression?
Trying to consider many possibilities also 3 bad ECMs ?
Just how bad did it overheat and for how long?
When attempting to start it, does the engine sound like it is spinning unusually fast , or the usual uneven sounds? (cyclic)
Another question, where did you purchase the parts? We are sure the crank sensor is working, but don't know about the cam sensor.
If you were to remove a couple spark plugs , what do they look like, wet , dry ?
Did you purchase fuel just before this took place? I will never forget that the customer purchased a load of water and we went nuts trying to pin down why it wouldn't start once it quit. Starting fluid does not work when plugs are wet from water or antifreeze !
The other is to remove the timing belt cover and check that the timing marks line up as detailed in your shop manual.
I have never heard of an engine jumping timing simply by an overheat condition. I guess there is a first time for everything.
Any indications of backfire or any firing at all at the wrong time?
Can I ask , how did you check the compression?
Trying to consider many possibilities also 3 bad ECMs ?
Just how bad did it overheat and for how long?
When attempting to start it, does the engine sound like it is spinning unusually fast , or the usual uneven sounds? (cyclic)
Another question, where did you purchase the parts? We are sure the crank sensor is working, but don't know about the cam sensor.
If you were to remove a couple spark plugs , what do they look like, wet , dry ?
Did you purchase fuel just before this took place? I will never forget that the customer purchased a load of water and we went nuts trying to pin down why it wouldn't start once it quit. Starting fluid does not work when plugs are wet from water or antifreeze !
Last edited by hanky; 08-25-2018 at 12:01 PM.
#19
08-27-2018, 08:43 PM
You have 2 choices to confirm correct timing, 2 channel scope as suggested by "avisitor" to observe crank signal and spark
The other is to remove the timing belt cover and check that the timing marks line up as detailed in your shop manual.
I have never heard of an engine jumping timing simply by an overheat condition. I guess there is a first time for everything.
Any indications of backfire or any firing at all at the wrong time?
Can I ask , how did you check the compression?
Trying to consider many possibilities also 3 bad ECMs ?
Just how bad did it overheat and for how long?
When attempting to start it, does the engine sound like it is spinning unusually fast , or the usual uneven sounds? (cyclic)
Another question, where did you purchase the parts? We are sure the crank sensor is working, but don't know about the cam sensor.
Scenario: bad gas clogs up fuel injectors, engine runs too lean and overheats going up hill. That is entirely possible.
If you were to remove a couple spark plugs , what do they look like, wet , dry ?
Did you purchase fuel just before this took place? I will never forget that the customer purchased a load of water and we went nuts trying to pin down why it wouldn't start once it quit. Starting fluid does not work when plugs are wet from water or antifreeze !
The other is to remove the timing belt cover and check that the timing marks line up as detailed in your shop manual.
I have never heard of an engine jumping timing simply by an overheat condition. I guess there is a first time for everything.
Any indications of backfire or any firing at all at the wrong time?
Can I ask , how did you check the compression?
Trying to consider many possibilities also 3 bad ECMs ?
Just how bad did it overheat and for how long?
When attempting to start it, does the engine sound like it is spinning unusually fast , or the usual uneven sounds? (cyclic)
Another question, where did you purchase the parts? We are sure the crank sensor is working, but don't know about the cam sensor.
Scenario: bad gas clogs up fuel injectors, engine runs too lean and overheats going up hill. That is entirely possible.
If you were to remove a couple spark plugs , what do they look like, wet , dry ?
Did you purchase fuel just before this took place? I will never forget that the customer purchased a load of water and we went nuts trying to pin down why it wouldn't start once it quit. Starting fluid does not work when plugs are wet from water or antifreeze !
If the airbags deploy in a wreck (or car overheats) I think the ECU can disable itself by design.
I found several places that test ECUs without the car. There is a standard tester for this. The closest place is about 200 miles away...
They repair ECUs by flashing the EPROM, then guarantee it for 5 years. It costs about $200 to fix one. Apparently, there is a wide demand for doing these repairs.
There is a place that works on Hyundai ECUs.
The timing marks do line up I checked that first, it didn't slip timing.
I know the parts sensors are good, because they came off the car when it was running. Cam and Crank sensors are both good, and have been swapped with good ones.
No firing or back-firing. The engine spins faster than normal when I crank it. No firing w/ starter spray either.
Spark plugs look soaked in gas. (but I know there is spark) Compression was tested with a compression gauge as usual.
Yes I purchased gas just before it failed. I was thinking the same thing, but I drained the gas and ran it in another car, no problems.
I think at this point I may have the ECU re-flashed, and try it again.
Last edited by ampmadscientist; 08-27-2018 at 09:10 PM.
#20
08-27-2018, 10:04 PM
Did you or did you not use starter spray??
Hyundai cars use a waste spark system.
In other words, the coils will fire twice for the pair of cylinders
One cylinder will be in compression and ready for spark
The other will be 180 degrees out in exhaust (this spark will do nothing)
Think about it, the ECU sends signal to coil to fire when it gets a signal from crankshaft sensor that it is in right position
So if there is spark, the ECU and CKS are working.
As Hanky says, check to see if the timing belt or chain is in good condition and moving valves.
If timing belt then sounds like it broke. If timing chain then it sounds like it jumped.
Either that or check for compression with a gauge.
If a car overheats then it will continue until it is shut down or the conditions for engine to run are no longer available.
Overheating usually affects the head gasket. Burns them to have holes between cylinders.
Sometimes coolant will flow into cylinders or vicesa versa
Do a leak down test.
Good luck
Last edited by avisitor; 08-27-2018 at 10:08 PM.